I'd prefer to believe that in God's omnipotence he could create a person IN HIS IMAGE.
Now, what Heretic means by that is, he believe that God is so powerful he could create something over which he has no power (namely, the human will). Another way of stating this is that he believes God is so powerful that He can actually choose to limit his power. I think this is a fair restatement that he would not contest.
So, we are left with a difficult question regarding something which I hear so often from believers in libertarian freedom that it does deserve some attention; namely this idea that a sovereign being such as God can use His sovereignty to limit His sovereignty.
My initial reaction to this idea is to brush it off, because it seems so obviously contradictory. However, so many people have, over the years, said this in one form or another to me that I think it deserves at least a cursory discussion in my Compatiblism series.
My primary approach to this shall be to demonstrate that sovereignly limited sovereignty is contradictory. First of all, a definition of sovereignty that won't make Heretic squirm:
The theological dictionary from Carm.org defines sovereignty thusly:
The right of God to do as He wishes (Psalm 50:1; Isaiah 40:15; 1 Tim. 6:15) with His creation. This implies that there is no external influence upon Him and that He also has the ability to exercise His power and control according to His will.
My argument is that Heretic's position [God's sovereignty entails the possibility of not being sovereign] is inherently contradictory.
1. God is sovereign.
2. If God's sovereignty entails the possibility to also not be sovereign then God is both sovereign and also not sovereign
3. Therefore God is not sovereign.
This is a contradiction. It's at this point that I call upon Heretic to give up his position, but that is unlikely. Rather, I would challenge our readers to not follow this modernistic tendency to make up ideas about God limiting himself when the Bible says nothing of the sort. I know Walker will have something else to say about this, so I will leave it to him, in the meantime, because I know his own post is forthcoming.
"The doctrine of the sovereignty of God is the doctrine that gives means and substance to all other doctrines." - J.M. Boice
"It is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things but that He does so always and without exception." - John Piper
Could God make a rock so big he could not move it?
ReplyDeleteCould God limit his power so much that he no longer is God?
(All I really need to know about philosophy I learned in kindergarten.)
You know, dec, I've thought about that question, and the truth is, the question of whether God could make a rock so big He could not move it is an attempt to pit His omnipotence against his omnipotence. It's absurdly contradictory, and I know you're aware of that, which is why you mention it.
ReplyDeleteHeretic has the problem facing him that the question of God's limiting His sovereignty is analogous to the rock question. It is a contradiction to suggest that God can be omnipotent and also not omnipotent.
As always, dec, thanks for your input. By the way, do I know you anywhere besides here on blogger?
God has decreed the free acts of man... Berkhof
ReplyDeleteCould I also say:
Man freely acts according to God's sovereign will.
Man freely sins according to God's sovereign will.
Man freely obeys according to God's sovereign will.
Or have I gone too far? I've never heard these things openly stated from the pulpit. Would you preach such things?
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his [sovereign] will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
"By the way, do I know you anywhere besides here on blogger?"
ReplyDeleteNo, our paths have never crossed in the real world. I've lived in Manhattan, KS for the past 28 years. But I did grow up Mennonite around Newton and went to Bethel College in N. Newton.
So, I've been a Mennonite for 50 years and a Christian for 4.
(...um, for any non-Calvinists, I mean the last 4)
When you say man freely sins according to God's sovereign will, you are right. He does not, of course, sin in accordance with God's moral will (there is a difference, of course, for His moral will expresses that which we are to obey). So no, you haven't gone too far. Just remember, the Bible sees no contradiction between these statements, and if Berkhof is right, then we should not think such a reconciliation is necessary, either. I do think the model of Compatiblism which we have been offering on here does lend a great deal of clarity to the issue, however.
ReplyDeleteYou may not be used to hearing this preached from the pulpit, but I'm not either (actually, go to http://www.desiringgod.org and you'll find tons of preaching that sounds like this; just look up "God's Sovereignty"). I only recently found a Reformed church where something like this might be discussed openly. I do think that something like this should have a purpose. There should be some type of goal in preaching this. For example, in preaching God's sovereignty, I would make clear that God's ultimate goal and His strongest desire is to glorify Himself and make His name known among the nations as holy, kind, and also as just. This is why He decrees all things, even if we don't understand each and every individual instance of His sovereignly willing something. Berkhof said something to that effect (I just read it this morning). If I find the quote I'll put it up on here.
One of my professors used to say something along the lines of believing in a sovereignty that goes beyond human comprehension. That sounds good, but from what usually came next, I think it was just another way of saying what heretic was saying.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if anyone is going to try to find fault with your syllogism.
To continue:
ReplyDeleteGod has decreed the free acts of Satan.
Satan freely acts according to God's sovereign will.
Is Job 1 a portrayal of compatiblistic freedom, where Satan chooses to smite Job according to God's good purpose?
(Apparently, Satan is a strong believer in Libertarian freedom and can not see that he is acting in step with God's plan.)
------
...in the Compatiblistic schema, people are judged because their actions arise from their nature.
Satan acts out of his evil nature, unless restrained by God.
Unregenerate man acts out of his sin nature, unless restrained by God.
Regenerate man acts out of his nature that is being renewed by God...?
Well, dec, I do think Job 1 may be an example of Compatiblistic freedom, with regards to Satan. But that passage, I think, works better as a general example of God's sovereignty over evil. After all, though Satan has evil intentions, God has good intentions (the testing of Job's faith). Therefore, God gives permission for Satan to do evil to Job (in fact, God gives Satan permission to kill people [Job's children]!)
ReplyDeleteAn example of compatiblistic freedom would be something where, say, God explicitly decrees that someone do something and then judges that person for that act which He decreed to happen (again, part 1 of this series has numerous examples of this). Even Greg Boyd (a leading Open Theist) concedes, for example, that Judas was not free in a libertarian sense when he betrayed our Lord. Therefore, Judas would be a good example of someone whom God foreordained to do something and then He judged them for it. As Berkhof says, the Bible shows no indication of needing to reconcile God's decrees with human responsibility.
"Satan acts out of his evil nature, unless restrained by God.
Unregenerate man acts out of his sin nature, unless restrained by God.
Regenerate man acts out of his nature that is being renewed by God...?"
Yes, Yes, and Yes!
Remember, everyone who is free in the Compatiblistic sense always acts according to their strongest desire at any given moment. Satan's strongest desire is to sin and rebel against God for one reason or another. Unregenerate man hates God, because that is what his nature was when he came from the womb. Regenerate persons, on the other hand, are able to please God in one degree or another because their nature has been essentially altered. Rather than hate God, they now have a love and regard for Him. Because of this, they do deeds which please God out of love and utmost regard for him.
And as you pointed out, God is, according to Scripture, always able to sovereignly restrain the evil acts of both Satan and human beings. In fact, He does it all of the time!
actually... you'll find tons
ReplyDeleteYeah, like this...
Sovereignty
"Now, what Heretic means by that is, he believe that God is so powerful he could create something over which he has no power (namely, the human will). Another way of stating this is that he believes God is so powerful that He can actually choose to limit his power. I think this is a fair restatement that he would not contest."
ReplyDeleteNo no no. I do contest that restatment. I don't believe God can create something over which he CAN have no power... but only that God can create something over which he chooses not to excercise the power that he in fact DOES have over it. So in other words I'm not saying "God could create a rock so big he cannot lift it." I'm saying "God can create a rock... and then choose not to lift it... even though he could lift it if he so chose."
"...namely this idea that a sovereign being such as God can use His sovereignty to limit His sovereignty."
Again I do not think God limits his sovereignty... he just chooses not to assert it.
"1. God is sovereign.
2. If God's sovereignty entails the possibility to also not be sovereign then God is both sovereign and also not sovereign
3. Therefore God is not sovereign."
Although I've already pointed out where you mischaracterized my position, I feel I need to at least address this syllogism.
1. Is correct
2. Is false. God's sovereignty does not also entail the possibility to not be sovereign.
3. Is also false. I do not conclude that God is not sovereign.
"Rather, I would challenge our readers to not follow this modernistic tendency to make up ideas about God limiting himself when the Bible says nothing of the sort. I know Walker will have something else to say about this, so I will leave it to him, in the meantime, because I know his own post is forthcoming."
Again God does not limit his soverienty, but chooses not to assert it in certain situations. In addition, I need to address this idea that you've presented that scripture does not offer any examples of God choosing not to excercise his sovereignty. Isn't it possible that God could have destroyed Ninevah? And yet he withheld judgment. Ding ding. An example of God choosing not to do something which he obviously had the power to do. Nuff said.
"It is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things but that He does so always and without exception." - John Piper.
Just because God has the power to do something, does not mean that he "always" does so. (Just see the Ninevah example.) Now if by power and right to govern all things, he simply means that God is always sovereign even if he chooses not to assert his sovereignty... then I agree with piper... but if he means that anything God has the power and right to do GOD ACTUALLY DOES... then I definately disagree with that idea.
Dec quoted...
ReplyDelete"You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his [sovereign] will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?""
If the molder punished me for the way he made me, I would CERTAINLY ask that question.
Dec said...
ReplyDelete"God has decreed the free acts of Satan."
I have no reason to belive Satan has been made in God's image. Do you?
I believe that man was made in God's image. Whether Satan was or not is unclear. Surely he was in some respects, but not in the same way that we as humans are.
ReplyDelete"I believe that man was made in God's image. Whether Satan was or not is unclear. Surely he was in some respects, but not in the same way that we as humans are."
ReplyDeleteRight, well if this is the case then dec's reference to God's decreeing the free acts of Satan would be inapplicable, because they are not analogous.
Well, I didn't ask dec to write what he wrote. This is a free blog, and anyone can write what they want.
ReplyDelete(Just because it's not applicable to the discussion doesn't mean I don't believe it to be true, of course.)
"Well, I didn't ask dec to write what he wrote. This is a free blog, and anyone can write what they want. "
ReplyDeleteHa ha... I was actually only responding to Dec, and then you answered for him...